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Author Topic: Celtic ornaments on Mountain Ocarinas: Part 1  (Read 24653 times)
ubizmo
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« Reply #15 on: April 15, 2009, 02:44:57 am »

Why don't you try making a little audio file of a passage played both ways, so we can listen and see how they sound?  I think I know what you mean, but I'm not sure, and a few measures would make it clear.

Ubizmo


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mannafromheaven
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« Reply #16 on: April 15, 2009, 04:57:39 pm »

Thanks alot for doing this vid !! My playing is pretty clear sounding, but it's rather boring & i have been wondering how to add those interesting little "ornaments" in there.  Thanks again, this has been alot of help.


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Amanda
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« Reply #17 on: April 15, 2009, 07:19:38 pm »

Why don't you try making a little audio file of a passage played both ways, so we can listen and see how they sound?  I think I know what you mean, but I'm not sure, and a few measures would make it clear.

Ubizmo

OK, thanks.
http://sites.google.com/site/ocarinastuff/finale-notepad-files-1/RollQuestion.mp3?attredirects=0

B-A-G-B-A-G.  Using L1, L2, L3, R1, R2, R3 = left index, left middle, left ring, etc:

#1 - no ornaments
#2 - Cut A just after its parent beat using L2.  Then strike the G on its beat using R1.  I gather this is not a proper roll.  I kinda like the sound even though the G doesn't sound all that sharply percussed.
#3 - Cut the G on its beat using L1.  If I understand Mr. Larsen correctly, to cut the G as I descend from the A, I lift L1 and put it down a hair after L3, but such that the G sound arrives on time.  L2 stays down.  Then strike the G with R1 such that the strike lands exactly between the 2nd G and the first B.
#4 - same as #3 but exaggerating the cut G a bit more

To start the answer to my own question, I suppose #2 is "OK" - but not very Irish.  So I guess I'm asking a variation of my original ?, knowing what to do when.


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ubizmo
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« Reply #18 on: April 15, 2009, 07:52:50 pm »

Thanks for doing that.  Here are my impressions:

#2 sounds more like a grace note than a cut.  It sounds like you are playing *B *(ABA) *G, putting a strike on the G.  This sounds like a perfectly good ornament, but it's not a classic Celtic roll.

#3 and #4 sound like regular rolls, but understated.  The reason is that if you're playing G on a standard D tin whistle, and you lift L1, you actually get a C, which is a fourth higher than the G.  That difference in pitch makes the cut stand out.  On the MO, when you play G and lift L1, you get A, a bit flat.  Cutting to a G from an A or Ab isn't much contrast, so the roll sounds a little thin.  G is easier to cut on the whistle than on the MO.  I would try doing the cut with L2 and L3 simultaneously, which isn't hard to to, or try using RT.

Ubizmo


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Amiable
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« Reply #19 on: April 16, 2009, 04:07:41 am »

Thanks for the series of videos Karl.  I just finished watching all of the Celtic Ornamentations in a row.  The historical role of bagpipes helps make this all make sense!

I just found out why I couldn't register ocarinastuff on Google Sites Wink


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hoodsmom
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« Reply #20 on: April 17, 2009, 05:51:17 am »

#2 sounds more like a grace note than a cut.  It sounds like you are playing *B *(ABA) *G, putting a strike on the G.  This sounds like a perfectly good ornament, but it's not a classic Celtic roll.

#3 and #4 sound like regular rolls, but understated. 

Ubi, thanks for the explanation, esp about why the cuts in #3 and #4 are understated.  I did a little reading in Grey Larsen's more advanced tin whistle book - what I was able to glean from Google Books - if I understand correctly, the cut I was doing in #2 is called a double cut.


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hoodsmom
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« Reply #21 on: April 25, 2009, 08:54:05 pm »

Grey Larsen sells these on his website:

What is a Tune Packet?

Three downloads, neatly wrapped together in virtual brown paper (actually an easy-to-download ZIP file):

   1. Grey's musical transcription of a traditional Irish tune (as a PDF file), with suggested ornamentation, variations, and breathing spots for flute and whistle players.
   2. A recording (an MP3 soundfile) of Grey playing that tune, exactly as transcribed.
   3. Grey's written commentary (as a PDF file) on the tune, including its background, and insights on how to play it well.


Karl, any chance of developing something similar for Mountain Ocarinas?


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Karl
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« Reply #22 on: May 10, 2009, 01:40:43 am »

Sorry I haven't responded to this sooner! 

Yes, I do plan to introduce some traditional Irish dance tunes soon in more or less the following way.  I would perform a tune in a video and probably also include an audio recording of the performance at 1/2 speed.  Based on the video performance, I'd then like to make a series of SHORT videos to examine different aspects of the tune such the basic feel of a jig (for example), lilt, tempo, tonguing, taking breaths, where and how I performed certain ornaments, etc.

I could start within the next few weeks if there are several people who are interested.  I was even considering starting a club within the forum for folks who were particularly interested in this type of music.


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teidon
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« Reply #23 on: May 10, 2009, 10:23:14 am »

Yes, I do plan to introduce some traditional Irish dance tunes soon in more or less the following way.  I would perform a tune in a video and probably also include an audio recording of the performance at 1/2 speed.
I think it would be a good idea to include both the normal speed and slower speed version in the same video. You could see and hear the song played in normal speed, and the slower speed version would allow you to see finger movement more clearly and also hear all the ornamentations and such more clearly.

Windows Movie Maker can do slow motion, but the version of WMM that comes with WinXP will lower audio's pitch. If you have Vista though, the version of WMM that comes with it can do slow motion while keeping the pitch normal. Or atleast that's what I've heard.


And I am interested of such videos. Smiley


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Laurent
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« Reply #24 on: May 10, 2009, 12:24:01 pm »

For the audio slowdowns, there is an excellent tool which was discussed somewhere here in the forum I think: Amazing Slow Downer. The audio quality of the slowdowns is really amazing. OK, it's not free, but it's worth the price.

http://www.ronimusic.com/amsldowin.htm

Try the demo!


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teidon
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« Reply #25 on: May 10, 2009, 12:47:26 pm »

Audacity should be able to do the same thing too, and it's free. There's two ways to slowdown audio, Change Speed and Change Tempo, the latter will maintain pitch.


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Laurent
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« Reply #26 on: May 10, 2009, 01:51:30 pm »

I just posted samples of sounds on this thread:

http://www.ocarinaboard.com/bb/index.php?topic=727.msg6835#msg6835

Check them if you want to compare audacity to amazing slow downer on a Karl Ahrens performance :-)


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hoodsmom
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« Reply #27 on: May 10, 2009, 07:27:29 pm »

Audacity is less convenient b/c you have to slow the tempo, wait for processing, then check out the results.  Then do it all over again if it's too slow or not slow enough for your liking.  Amazing Slow Downer has a slider that'll do things for you "on the fly."

The demo will do the first 1/4 of a piece of music, up to 3 min of slowed-down music total. 

So (since most of what we amateurs are studying are short snippets), use Audacity to lengthen the mp3 by inserting silence, then use the Amazing Slow Downer demo to change the tempo.


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Karl
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« Reply #28 on: May 11, 2009, 01:10:25 am »

Thanks for the comparison, Laurent!  You add so much to this forum.

I actually love how that arrangement of Greensleeves turned out, but my performance is a bit sloppy, as the slowed version reveals. (Rick and I met once to talk about what I wanted to do and once more a couple weeks later to record. Rick is such an experienced musician that he doesn't need much in the way of rehearsal, but I could have benefitted from a lot more practicing together.) Whatever the case, recording and then listening to our own playing from time to time is another great technique for improving. 

So... in the next couple of weeks, I want to video record a well-known jig up to speed.  One way or another, I want to at least provide slowed audio.  Teidon makes a great point. It would be more helpful if we could slow both the audio and the VIDEO.  (Unfortunately, I don't have Vista.)  When the time comes, I might be asking for help on how to slow it down.


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noahsummers
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« Reply #29 on: May 12, 2009, 12:22:22 am »

If you need a video slowed down, I could do that.  You could slow the audio down first, and then I could stretch the video to the exact length of the audio using After Effects, and recombine them if wanted. Smiley  All free of charge of course. Tongue


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