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jiminos
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humming to myself


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« on: December 21, 2008, 10:47:31 pm »

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« Last Edit: December 22, 2008, 08:26:46 pm by jiminos » Logged

Be in this moment.
That which is cannot be found. It is not lost.
It can only be accepted or rejected.
Truth is.
Spatolo
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« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2008, 11:46:00 pm »

Nice to know.
I love when we share details and impressions like this, here on the forum. For instance, ubizmo put down in word very well something I noticed but I could not describe, and most important, he let me realize something I never noticed before (for what concern instrument stability).
I can't still darn find my C (perhaps my girlfriend hidden it?) but I'm curious to try and experiment when I'll find it.


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Secretagentdan
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Exodus, movement of jah people!


« Reply #2 on: December 22, 2008, 01:16:40 am »

Spatolo,
 maybe she did hide it! My wife told me I was giving her a headache earlier, so I had to chill out for a while! lol Smiley


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ubizmo
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I couldn't fail to disagree with you less.


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« Reply #3 on: December 22, 2008, 03:11:15 am »

i've noticed that it takes a lot more air to "blow" the C into tune than it does for a G when playing along with a tuned guitar. just an observation...

I agree with your observation, and the tuning meter confirms it.  To play the G in tune requires what I regard as medium breath pressure; the C requires strong pressure.  The tuning meter confirms it.

ubi


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Secretagentdan
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« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2008, 03:50:02 am »

The sound chamber is much bigger on the C ocarina..I wonder if that what makes the difference?! Dan


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shan
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« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2008, 04:24:53 am »

The sound chamber is much bigger on the C ocarina..I wonder if that what makes the difference?! Dan

I would think that the sound chamber's size has more to do with the pitch of the instrument- volume is inversely proportional to fundamental frequency, right?  I.e., the greater the volume, the lower the fundamental frequency.  Is that what you mean? 


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Secretagentdan
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« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2008, 05:01:35 am »

You lost me Shan! I just figured if the air chamber was bigger, it would take more breath to fill it. Dan


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shan
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« Reply #7 on: December 22, 2008, 05:16:52 am »

I just figured if the air chamber was bigger, it would take more breath to fill it.
Yeah, that's obviously true.  What I was getting at is something that you already know- whether you know you know it or not.  That is, a larger vessel makes a lower pitch.  True of bells, drums, flutes, whatever.  I was saying that I thought the chief impact of the size of an ocarina (MO or otherwise) would be its pitch.  Dunno if that is correct; just sayin' that's what I expect. 

Clear as mud, right?



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Secretagentdan
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« Reply #8 on: December 22, 2008, 05:21:36 am »

I see what you're saying. Clear as mud! Smiley Peace, Dan


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Secretagentdan
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« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2008, 05:27:27 am »

I think you may have made an excellent point my taoist friend! Peace, Dan


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shan
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« Reply #10 on: December 22, 2008, 01:46:00 pm »

sometimes the knowing of something is enough...

Hmmm.  I like my epistemology a little more robust.  With a double shot of empiricism. 

But you're right, that's not for everyone. 


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ubizmo
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« Reply #11 on: December 22, 2008, 02:28:02 pm »

This issue (the tuning issue, not the epistemic one) came up in another thread.  From my reading about the construction of various keyless wind instruments, I've learned about some of the design challenges.  It's not easy to get all the notes to play in tune and have simple fingerings and have a chromatic scale.  On the C ocarina, it takes more oomph to get the low C and D up to concert pitch, somewhat less on the higher notes.  The G is a bit more uniform, at least that's my impression.  The C could have been made a bit smaller, but that would probably make the high notes a bit sharp, and might throw off the accidentals too.  We know that the B subhole is absent on the C ocarina because it presented a tuning challenge.

In the early 20th century, the so-called "German fingering" for recorders was developed.  It was (is) simpler for playing certain notes, but the result is that other notes were thrown out of tune.  As a result it is almost never used by serious recorder players.

There are no keyless wind instruments in symphony orchestras.  There's a reason for that.  You can't make a keyless wind instrument that optimizes range, accuracy, and efficient fingering, so you have to make compromises.  In the case of the recorder, you give up some efficiency.  Recorder fingering is a bit cumbersome, but the pitch is pretty accurate, and the range is about the same as the oboe.  Tin whistle fingering is about as simple as it gets, but there is some inevitable loss of accuracy: If the low octave is in key, the 2nd octave will be a bit sharp.  And of course, most accidentals require half-holing, which limits "range" in some respects.  The ocarina has simple fingering but the range is limited and the pitch is unstable, compared to other wind instruments.  12-hole ocarinas have more range, but the trade-off is slightly more complicated fingering.

ubi


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ubizmo
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« Reply #12 on: December 22, 2008, 06:12:11 pm »

Yes, conical bore helps, although those instruments still give up range, in the sense of accidentals.  Baroque recorders have conical bore, which they need for accuracy, but in order to get the accidentals they have to make more extensive use of cross-fingering.  You don't see keyless flutes or tin whistles in symphony orchestras because that genre of music requires not only accuracy of pitch but also all accidentals (also right on pitch) and fingering that is efficient enough for playing fast in lots of keys.  The keyless instrument that comes closest is the recorder.  The recorder's fingering, however, is cumbersome enough that when you start getting into keys with four or more sharps or flats, the going gets very tough.  This is one reason why the Boehm flute rather quickly replaced recorders in classical music.  Another reason is the fact that the conical bore tends to make recorders a bit weak in the low end of their range.  Renaissance recorders, with a wider bore, overcame this problem, but inherited other problems, such as a tendency to airiness in the high register.

ubi


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Secretagentdan
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« Reply #13 on: December 22, 2008, 06:35:22 pm »

Good quote Jim, I think bb king makes a great point. Just like lord oblivion was saying, sometimes people play a million notes, and it just sounds like there is no emotion-just shredding! I think a lot of really fast playing sometimes is mistaken for virtuosity! Dan


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shan
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« Reply #14 on: December 22, 2008, 07:37:18 pm »

what's epistemology?

never mind... found a dictionary. it says...

"The branch of philosophy that investigates the origin, nature, methods, and limits of human knowledge."
i'm gonna go scratch my head and think about this while i try to substitute the above definition for the word in the previous postings.

"never use three notes to say what can be said with one." B.B. King

See, that's just what I did; instead of using "three notes" (15 words, in this case) I used only one. 


« Last Edit: December 22, 2008, 07:53:32 pm by shan » Logged
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