Our guarantees Forum - Discussion Board Ocarina Lessons about us about our ocarinas ocarina video ocarina sound samples ocarinas and music Home Page
November 29, 2020, 05:12:36 am *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Join Karl in The 5-Minute Musician's Club™.
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register  
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 9
  Print  
Author Topic: Loving Your Neighbor Means Controlling Your Sound  (Read 74762 times)
Karl
Sr. Member
*****
Posts: 419


Coda Creator & Player


« Reply #15 on: May 05, 2009, 03:03:57 am »

Prego, Spatolo. (Now that I have used up all my Italian words, I'll switch back to English. Cheesy)  I purchased some materials today that I want to test out this week.  As I mentioned, I'd like to make a kinder, gentler smaller, lighter, and more durable ocsbox.

Karl   


Logged
noahsummers
Full Member
***
Posts: 223



« Reply #16 on: May 05, 2009, 05:46:44 pm »

This is soooo awesome!  Personally, I would set out to make a somewhat classy-looking (yet cheap) wooden booth with a door.  Sort of like a phone booth but with sound dampening technology and a place to sit. Wink


Logged
Karl B
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 385


Ocarina Beginner


« Reply #17 on: May 05, 2009, 10:50:21 pm »

Okay I was trying to come up with an idea, but I haven't been able to do it yet so I'm throwing out on the table to see if it's worth picking up.

How about taking a stethoscope, take off the "pickup" (or whatever that thing is on the end that's always cold.  Cheesy) replace it with with a smaller one and attach it over the fipple hole on the ocarina.   Or I was thinking a suction cup with a hole in the middle with a short hose connector to the hose on the stethoscope.  I don't know if this would restrict the air flow enough to prevent sound, nor do I know if sound escapes from the finger holes.

Well is this feasible, or pie in the sky?

Karl B


Logged

A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have."   --Thomas Jefferson
Cliff
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1121



WWW
« Reply #18 on: May 06, 2009, 01:55:12 am »

Interesting idea KarlB. One idea to throw out would be to take the stethoscope and plug it into the box (through a hole in the box) if you wanted to hear the sound at a louder volume. This would be akin to playing a digital piano with headphones on. The box could be used with or without "headphones" depending on how loud you wanted to hear. Or you could put a real mic amp and headphones inside the box and listen on headphones with an actual volume control knob.


Logged

Hard to find time for music?  Have you got 5 minutes?Join The 5-Minute Musician's Club™
Spatolo
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1339



« Reply #19 on: May 06, 2009, 11:11:08 am »

GREAT stuff, this way I could silence the box hugely (with many layers of foam) if not COMPLETELY and still enjoy the music!! I also own a sthetoscope already. This sounds more and more intersting already.

Now a question about this wonderful system(s) in development. I would like to know how is the feeling of playing the oc-in-the-box from the point of view of blowing/breathing/mouth shaping/throat shaping. I guess that blowing into a tube rather than into the real thing could change somehow how the instrument plays (the airflow bends before getting in the ocarina... or perhaps NOT, since the piece in the end is straight... hum. Hum. Hum).
Anyhow. My biggest trouble is STILL playing decently high notes; mostly because they are not only the most difficult, but also the louder - so, I don't practice to avoid bothering the neighbors... eh eh.

I remember Ubi's recommendations about those notes and about keeping the throat wide open to improve the quality of the tone. So in the end I wonder if and how blowing in the tube can be in relationship to this.

(BTW: the "side of the sthetoscope that's always cool" made me laugh out loud).


Logged
Karl
Sr. Member
*****
Posts: 419


Coda Creator & Player


« Reply #20 on: May 07, 2009, 12:27:24 am »

Hi, guys.  Please watch this video of the latest version of the OcsBox. (Hopefully, it will be attached to this post soon.) I’ve looked into MANY other box ideas, but this latest version is attractive, durable, affordable, portable, and VERY quiet. In case you haven’t noticed, I really like it! (Should it be be OcsBox or OcBox?)

Spatolo, tonguing and blowing one of our ocarinas through a tube is surprisingly similar to blowing directly into the mouthpiece. However, you have raised some excellent questions. I’ll try to address them after I get a chance to play a lot in the OcBox over the next several days. Also, after I try it out for a bit, I’ll want to send boxes to some of you for review and feedback.  Let me spend some quality time with it first, though.  Wink

By the way, one thing I've become convinced of is the difference between sound absorbtion and sound transmission loss. Sound passes with surprising ease through most sound absorbing materials and through any holes or cracks.  For that reason, sound absorbing materials alone often don't quiet things down as much as we think they will. However, if we use heavier, denser materials (without leaks) to contain the sound, then sound absorbers like acoustic foam will help dissipate that sound energy (into low grade heat) as the sound waves meet resistance while bouncing back and forth through the foam.
 
Noah, when I first began working on this sound control concept, all my research was aimed at creating an affordable 4’ x 4’ x 7.6’ soundproof booth.  Personally, I have created a fairly soundproof little room in my home, and I thought others could do the same.  But… as I got more into this, I was worried that most folks wouldn’t consider a project like this if they had to spend much time or money on it. The biggest challenge to creating a soundproof booth is proper ventilation. Keeping a small, insulated room cool AND quiet requires a bit of money and some ingenuity. 

That’s why I wound up experimenting with the trashbarrel upper body soundbooth. After studying about and making lots of drawings of complete sound booths, I started thinking in simpler, cheaper terms, especially in light of these tough financial times.  The “trashbooth” does work pretty well, but I don’t play my ocarina in there much now. (It’s still in a little cubbyhole next to our kitchen, but now I use it as a handy, peaceful, private place to pray in the morning. It’s dark and quiet in there, so I find it easier to relax there than in my home office, where ongoing projects call out to me as I walk through the door.)

Actually, Noah, I’m hoping we’ll come back to the soundproof booth idea in a few months. A booth doesn’t have to take up much space, and I know that some of you want to make recordings at times when the rest of the world wants quiet…

Karl B., I love ideas like your stethoscope suggestion! Unfortunately, if you block the fipple window, an ocarina won’t speak. (And just to be scientific, I ran and borrowed a stethoscope from my wife, an R.N., to test this idea.) For proper sound production, air must be able to cycle freely into and out of the fipple window and the toneholes.  In the same way, the toneholes and fipple window are the orifices from which sound waves are transmitted.  As Cliff mentioned, if we eventually create an OcBox that is almost completely silent, we could listen to ourselves play via a small mic and earbuds.

I spoke to my friend Dave Chamberlain of Octobrass today. He really likes this idea and is onboard with us on it.

Karl




« Last Edit: May 07, 2009, 02:15:50 am by Cliff » Logged
noahsummers
Full Member
***
Posts: 223



« Reply #21 on: May 07, 2009, 04:38:18 pm »

Whoa, best one yet!  I love the way you could actually carry that around in public!


Quote
The biggest challenge to creating a soundproof booth is proper ventilation. Keeping a small, insulated room cool AND quiet requires a bit of money and some ingenuity.
Hmm, I hadn't even thought about that.  It seems to me that the best ventilation method (without putting a significant amount of money into it) would just be to open and close the door every once in a while.  That way you wouldn't have to sacrifice any sound dampening.  Probably wouldn't be the best solution in the hotter months, though. Undecided


Logged
dereks
Jr. Member
**
Posts: 69



« Reply #22 on: May 07, 2009, 05:09:37 pm »

As I have said in other postings, I travel alot.  I can't tell you how excited I am about the ocsbox!  It has been a challenge to practice on the road.  Please, let us know when you feel you have all of the kinks out.  I, for one, would love to have one.  If you sell a kit, or a unit, I would buy one.  I'm almost as excited about it as I was waiting for my ocarina for first arrive!


Logged
ubizmo
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1922


I couldn't fail to disagree with you less.


WWW
« Reply #23 on: May 07, 2009, 05:27:10 pm »

This looks like a winner.  The OcsBox is portable enough to go on trips, and in a hotel room it would probably be less loud than the TV, and certain less loud than normal conversation.  It does sound loud enough to hear, for practice purposes, without a mic and earphones.

Ubizmo


Logged
Karl
Sr. Member
*****
Posts: 419


Coda Creator & Player


« Reply #24 on: May 07, 2009, 07:53:56 pm »

Quote
The biggest challenge to creating a soundproof booth is proper ventilation. Keeping a small, insulated room cool AND quiet requires a bit of money and some ingenuity.
Hmm, I hadn't even thought about that.  It seems to me that the best ventilation method (without putting a significant amount of money into it) would just be to open and close the door every once in a while.  That way you wouldn't have to sacrifice any sound dampening.  Probably wouldn't be the best solution in the hotter months, though.

Noah, about sound booths, I guess the importance of ventilation depends on geographical region and time of year.  In my limited experience, I find that a small well-insulated space tends to heat up surprisingly quickly.  For instance, our basement (where I have my soundproof little room) stays fairly cool, even in the Summer.  My soundproof room is fine during the cooler months because I keep the heat very low in the basement. In the Summer, though, that room can turn into a sweat chamber if I stay in there for a long time without ventilation. As committed as I am to all things ocarina, even I find it less fun to play when my body parts start to melt.

Ubi, my family all agrees that the OcBox is much quieter than a television set at "normal" listening level. It really is appropriate for hotel playing and for playing with other people nearby. For example, folks sometimes mention that they are shy about practicing new or difficult material when other people can hear them. I can relate to that! The OcBox provides lots of privacy.

I appreciate all the feedback, and I'm glad some of you guys are excited about this because I am! Dereks, as I get more into this, I become more and more committed to eventually making a finished version of the OcBox available to folks, either by posting do-it-yourself plans or by making this a product that we sell, or both.

I wasn't planning on making any more OcBox videos for a few days, but then I had a minor breakthrough today while playing in the box. In the back of my mind, I was concerned that beginners might not benefit as much as advanced players from the OcBox. What I mean is this: folks new to ocarinas might find it strange or confusing to play an ocarina with hands raised to their face when playing OUTSIDE of the box and then with hands down in their lap when playing INSIDE the box.  So, after testing a few postiions, I put the OcBox upside down on a mic stand so that I can play my ocarina inside the box almost exactly like I do outside, except that it is much quieter. I find that I greatly prefer this position and that it accurately mimics the holding, balancing, blowing, etc. of normal ocarina playing. The only drawback is that a traveler now has to pack a telescoping stand too. On the bright side, I did a quick net search and found a few light, inexpensive stands that fold and telescope to fit in luggage.

I'm going to try to make a quick video of me playing the OcBox on a stick stand. Maybe we can get it posted tonight.



« Last Edit: May 08, 2009, 03:02:44 am by Cliff » Logged
Karl
Sr. Member
*****
Posts: 419


Coda Creator & Player


« Reply #25 on: May 08, 2009, 02:10:08 am »

Tonight after Taekwondo, my wife Susan, my son Dan, and I were watching part of "Shrek" on the computer in the kitchen.  I watched for a while and then went to get my OcBox with stand. Without saying anything, I sat down in the same room with them, watched the movie, and played some energetic jigs at full volume on my encased ocarina. Of course, I'm not going to do this every time we watch a movie, but my family was not bothered by my playing at all. Although I can hear myself play, this OcBox is very quiet!  Its faint soft tones will not overpower movies, nearby phone conversations, grumpy neighbors, sleeping children, etc.


Logged
Spatolo
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1339



« Reply #26 on: May 08, 2009, 09:42:29 am »

Thank you again Karl for all of the enthusiasm you're putting into research and development of the oc*box: count me among the *very* excited fellows, that could definitively allow me to play A LOT more! I mentioned that to Cliff, I'm mostly focusing on a digital piano now although I'm very lame on it; just because I can play with headphones and be the only one that listen to it. That allows me to focus only on myself, the music, the rhythm, whatever relates to what I am doing, leaving everything else completely OUT. ("I am disturbing? What are the neighbors thinking?") Distracting and stressing thoughs, Out of my way!

That new box is for sure quiet enough to play leaving all the anxieties out of my darn head and focus on music. Nevertheless, I'm still wondering if that could be silenced even more. That's probably not a real need: it's more a curiosity than anything else


So: it for sure IS silenceable more (making it bigger and with more layers or foam and the like - for me portability is not an issue - but of course there would be the need for the player herself to listen! So again about the stethoscope, what about Cliff's idea? Plugging the stethoscope not onto the fipple or the windway, but just leaving it's end hanging inside the box, or fixed anyhow else into the box, but NOT touching the ocarina. Could that work? Would that allow the player to hear herself at a normal volume? If so, the oc*box could be silenced even more up to (almost) zero decibels to the point that one could play in bed with somebody sleeping just nearby. Or more realistically, just play at night being paranoically SURE that not even a spy could hear him.


« Last Edit: May 08, 2009, 09:54:46 am by Spatolo » Logged
Karl
Sr. Member
*****
Posts: 419


Coda Creator & Player


« Reply #27 on: May 08, 2009, 09:18:46 pm »

Spatolo, I hear your request for a nearly silent OcBox.  You want an OcBox that you could play while someone is sleeping by your side. That is a good goal.

Before I talk about that, I have to say that, for many situations, we might not want to make the OcBox quieter than it is now.  Unless I NEED it to be dead silent, it’s nice to be able to hear myself play without the use of special equipment.  With that said, there is no doubt that we could make it quieter than it is now!

For example, we could design a heavier desk model, an OcBox that you wouldn’t want to travel with but that you could lug around your house or apartment if you had to.  When weight and portability are not major concerns, it becomes a lot easier to design an enclosure (for only our ocarina, our wrists, and our hands) that could be almost silent.

By the way, if we do make the box “silent,” listening to our ocarina through a stethoscope is a good idea. There are a few problems with stethoscopes, however. First of all, they work best when in direct contact with the sound source, or the sound source has to be very close. Second, they don’t seem to transmit a very pleasing ocarina tone, and the volume is not adjustable. Finally, the stethoscopes I’ve tried are pretty uncomfortable to wear for any length of time. Very similar to a stethoscope, I think we could rig up a little eartube that would project just enough sound so that we could hear the ocarina but no one else could.  On the other hand, there are simple monitoring systems with a mic, amp, earbuds, and volume control that we could use to listen to ourselves play. And as Dave Chamberlain mentioned to me, we could add a touch of reverb to transform our little OcBox into a symphony hall.

Without even going to a desk model, we could make our present travel-ready OcBox quieter with a few simple modifications.  For example, we could simply drape the box with a special blanket that has both a sound barrier and a sound absorbing layer. Or, as you guys have mentioned, we could design a better wrist enclosure to further prevent sound from escaping from the OcBox. (The gauntlet idea is a good one, but it increases the complexity and, so far, it makes for a more sweaty, less comfortable playing experience.) Or we could make a soft fitted cover for the OcBox that would stow away inside the box for travel and wrap around the box when it’s time to play.  The cover could have an outer layer that is a flexible sound barrier and a sound absorbing inner layer. It could even have elastic wrist holes to prevent sound from leaking out around our hands.

At this point, I’ve been trying to keep things simple and fairly inexpensive so that folks at home or we at Mountain Ocarinas (a tiny company with limited resources) could actually make these things soon instead of in a year or two.
 
Next week, I’m going to try to meet again with Justin O’Neill of O’Neill Industrial Corporation (suppliers of noise control materials and systems). I want to show him our present OcBox and get his expert input on how we could improve it.

To all forum members, you’re feedback is extremely helpful. It’s especially helpful to know whether or not the OcBox idea would meet a need for you personally.

Thanks!


« Last Edit: May 08, 2009, 09:24:55 pm by Karl » Logged
Spatolo
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1339



« Reply #28 on: May 08, 2009, 09:56:15 pm »

Thank you Karl for such an informative answer. I actually asked that because, well, I'm paranoid  Grin, but I do absolutely realize that a small-sized, very effective ocsbox can be just perfect for fundamentally every ocarina player in the World that needs to play quietly - me included. I was just exploring possibilities (on your behalf, since it's you that do the dirty job of course Smiley ). I feel pretty lame for not having thought that a simple digital solution can do the job and could be very "tuneable" to the user's needs. (edit: not to mention that one can wear super-confortable earphones this way)
Thank you again then. Looking forward for your future ideas, improvements, and most important building plans. Wink


Logged
onewhohopes
Jr. Member
**
Posts: 73


Kayaking!


« Reply #29 on: May 11, 2009, 12:43:54 am »

It is amazing how quickly this idea has come into fruition.  I can't imagine any MO player who doesn't have a need for a suppressor (unless they have something already).  And, since I am a pretty big FPS fan (first-person shooter for you non-gamers out there), what about using the same technique as gun suppressors/silencers?  I know that a screw-on suppressor wouldn't work at all (although it would be cool-looking  Cool ), but I did some research into how they work (I like knowing things  Smiley ).  Gun suppressors use baffles on the inside of the metal cylinder to "fight sound with sound".  The baffles reflect some of the sound waves onto themselves, and when troughs and peaks meet, they cancel.

Along a similar note, the active noise canceling headphones use the same idea but instead of baffles they record the sound, invert it, and play it back.  So you could use the noise canceler in the box, and you can use the headphones to listen.   Smiley

I am also wondering, did you do any tests with no weighted vinyl lining or foam, with just the box?  I remember that one link someone posted with the "sax-box" thing, and it looks like it is just a thin plastic or rubber material.  I know it wouldn't work as well, but maybe it would be good enough for people with less stringent requirements.  It would also be interesting to know how many decibels you get playing without the OcBox, because I'm sure it must be like 80-100 in a small room (or so the ringing in my ears tells me).  My room does not absorb much sound at all; that's why I was wondering about a less-professional OcBox, because I think I would even use it when I'm by myself.

Also, I like OcBox over OcsBoxOcsBox sounds way too much like Oxbox, which might get people wondering what strange oxen-containment unit you have been concocting up.  Grin 

-Tom


Logged

Vivu Esperanto!
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 9
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.7 | SMF © 2006-2008, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!